This is the info missing from the new DVD, from the horse's mouth.
Ultimate Reality
JoinedPosts by Ultimate Reality
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31
SHOCKING Fred Franz Talk
by brotherdan ini'm sure many of you have heard this (i have the entire talk, btw), but breaking it up into these clips makes it even more shocking.. this is from the filthy harlots own mouth!.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmkdwk5svxm.
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Talked to hubby about Jesus being the Mediator for only 144,000 he said it made total sense
by life is to short inok so my husband and i sat down and i told him that i never totally got it that we as jehovah's witnesses believe that jesus died only for the 144,000. i showed him 1 tim 2:5, john 6:40, john 20:31, gal 1:4, gal 2:20 where it clearly says he died for everyone.
he said jesus died because we need a new covenant and he gave me jeremiah 31:31 then he went to heb 8:6-9 where we need a new covenant and the ended at luke 22:28 where jesus is talking to his disciples and they were part of the 144,000 so clearly jesus was meaning the new covenant was intended for the 144,000. jesus did give is life clearly for all of us as long as we are in contact with his chosen 144,000. if we ever stop believing in the anointed we are toast.
now my husband has been in the "truth" since 1972 and was an elder for 32 years.
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Ultimate Reality
I love how at one moment the NT is written to First Century contemporaries, and then, arbitrarily, it's written 'for our day' -- like 2 Tim 3.
The Society's teaching about the mediator cannot be scripturally defended. Use the tactic they teach in Pioneer School -- make him defend his belief using the Bible beacuse his response is simply a mindless regurgitation of poorly thought-out WT 'reasoning' with unproven premises.
The Watchtower of November 15, 1979, page 26, made this comment:
“What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.
The insertion "[not, all men]" is the Society blatantly changing the meaning of the Bible.
This issue was raised in a 1989 Questions From Readers (w 8/15/89 p 30-31):
“Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the “mediator” who “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”?”
The Watchtower answer to this question on the mediator centers on the following legal concept:
“The Greek word me·si′tes, used for “mediator,” means ‘one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.’ It was a ‘many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language.’ Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that me·si′tes was “one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law. ” (w 8/15/89 p 30-31)
So, it is a "many-sided technical" term. But they never bother to define what it means! Nor do they cite the source.
To put this 'legal word' non-sense to rest, here is how should we legally define the word mediator as used by Paul:
“[Paul] calls him the mediator, the mesities. Mesities comes from mesos, which, in this case, means in the middle. A mesities is, therefore, one who stands in the middle between two people and brings them together. When Job is desperately anxious that somehow he should be able to put his case to God, he cries out hopelessly: 'There is no umpire [mesities] between us' (Job 9:33). Paul calls Moses the mesities (Galations 3;19) in that he was the one between, who brought the law from God to the people. In Athens in classical times, there was a body of men - all citizens in their sixtieth year - who could be called upon to act as mediators when there was a dispute between two citizens, and their first duty was to bring about a reconciliation. In Rome, there were arbitri. The judge settled points of law; but the arbitri settled matters of what was fair and just; and it was their duty to bring disputes to an end. Further, in legal Greek, a mesities was a sponsor, a guarantor or a surety. He put up a bail for a friend who was on trial; he guaranteed a debt or an overdraft. The mesities was someone who was willing to pay a friend's debt to make things right again.”
- William Barclay (1907-1978), Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism Glasgow University in Scotland, Letter to the Hebrews, p. 106.
So, according to Paul, did Jesus -- as a mesities -- only 'bail out' a small, limited number of people? Is the payment of the 'debt of sin' only applied to the 144,000?
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Randy Watters -- WT admits 144,000 may not be the limit
by FatFreek 2005 ini, along with many others, received our latest freeminds email.
i was shocked at the following underlined statement.. the second thing they are emphasizing is that those who claim to be of the "anointed" (now that they have admitted the number may not be limited to 144,000) not only have no say into what goes into the watchtower magazine, and have no special knowledge or place in jehovah's organization, so don't look to them for answers.
the governing body is the faithful and discreet slave as far as the jws are to be concerned.
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Ultimate Reality
BP: I am sorry for any confusion. My statement about it being a figurative number is how one might interpret the meaning of the first post. This is not how I understood the post and the Society has not changed the 144,000 from literal to figurative. However, in application there is a problem since it seems the 144,000 limited has been exceeded. The Society has acknowledged this but now makes a distinction between genuine and non-genuine partakers/anointed. Therefore, we can conclude that the Society has admitted that the number of partakers/claimed anointed over time has exceeded the limit of 144,000.
And thank you for demanding verification and clarification of claims!
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Randy Watters -- WT admits 144,000 may not be the limit
by FatFreek 2005 ini, along with many others, received our latest freeminds email.
i was shocked at the following underlined statement.. the second thing they are emphasizing is that those who claim to be of the "anointed" (now that they have admitted the number may not be limited to 144,000) not only have no say into what goes into the watchtower magazine, and have no special knowledge or place in jehovah's organization, so don't look to them for answers.
the governing body is the faithful and discreet slave as far as the jws are to be concerned.
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Ultimate Reality
BP: What's written at the beginning of this post is technically accurate, but I see where different meanings can be reached. Language is always slippery. The WT has acknowledged that the 144,000 limit (and the calling ending in 1935) no longer applies. One can conclude this means they have changed the limit and made the 144,000 figurative. Or that what is in print leads us to the conclusion that we should not expect those who claim to be anointed are limited to 144,000. The latter being how I understood the opening post. The WT, rather than dealing with this issue directly, has changed the status of the players.
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Randy Watters -- WT admits 144,000 may not be the limit
by FatFreek 2005 ini, along with many others, received our latest freeminds email.
i was shocked at the following underlined statement.. the second thing they are emphasizing is that those who claim to be of the "anointed" (now that they have admitted the number may not be limited to 144,000) not only have no say into what goes into the watchtower magazine, and have no special knowledge or place in jehovah's organization, so don't look to them for answers.
the governing body is the faithful and discreet slave as far as the jws are to be concerned.
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Ultimate Reality
Broken Promises, I agree. No where has the society changed the 144,000 from literal to figurative. If that is what Randy is claiming, I don't know of any evidence. However, the 144,000 limit does not match with history and the Society's own numbers -- and they were forced to acknowledge this in the 2007 QFR. So, they are shifting attention from the fact that the number has been and will continue to be exceeded. It no longer matters to them anymore.
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Randy Watters -- WT admits 144,000 may not be the limit
by FatFreek 2005 ini, along with many others, received our latest freeminds email.
i was shocked at the following underlined statement.. the second thing they are emphasizing is that those who claim to be of the "anointed" (now that they have admitted the number may not be limited to 144,000) not only have no say into what goes into the watchtower magazine, and have no special knowledge or place in jehovah's organization, so don't look to them for answers.
the governing body is the faithful and discreet slave as far as the jws are to be concerned.
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Ultimate Reality
Randy's conclusion appears to be accurate.
The Society is typically passive-agressive in how they address their own sensitive 'issues'. Further, I think it's obvious we are in the midst of a transition in certain teachings, largely because of failed dates and other numbers. Questions of the anointed and the GB's authority (and credibility) are at stake, so they have been making some changes over the last few years. So, we have to read between the lines over a period of time to see what has really happened.
First, in 1984, the Society was still defending the 1935 anointed-to-great crowd cutoff / transition 'calling' date:
5 The countdown that has proceeded for some six millenniums now nears its zero hour. So close is it that people who were alive in 1914, and who are now well along in years, will not all pass off the scene before the thrilling events marking the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty come to pass.—Mark 13:30.
6 Other loyal servants of God, too, will be on hand to witness the events of that great day. Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the globe. God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The “great crowd,” including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the “new earth.” - Survival, p. 185
In 2007, they addressed the issue of the obvious 'continued' calling of new anointed members and said that the calling, evidently, did not stop in 1935. But gave the following qualification on the matter of those claiming to be anointed (note, there are also now genuine anointed):
How should a person be viewed who has determined in his heart that he is now anointed and begins to partake of the emblems at the Memorial? He should not be judged. The matter is between him and Jehovah. (Romans 14:12) However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special “insights,” beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have. They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the other sheep have; nor do they expect special treatment or claim that their partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation. They humbly remember that some anointed men in the first century did not qualify to serve as elders or ministerial servants. (1 Timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13; Titus 1:5-9; James 3:1) Some anointed Christians were even spiritually weak. (1 Thessalonians 5:14) And sisters, although anointed, did not teach in the congregation.—1 Timothy 2:11, 12. - w07 5/1 p.31
A major article that gives evidence of a transition is the June 2009 study article on the Faithful Steward and its Governing Body. It seems they are transitioning from the slave/steward is a group to the slave/steward is the GB with the 'claimed' anointed as the 'domestics' and the great crowd covering everyone else. The anointed domestics and the great crowd are on the same, 'non-insightful' plane, whereas the GB is' spirit-directed':
On the other hand, how should other Christians view a person who claims to have received this anointing and begins to partake of the emblems at the Memorial? He or she should not be judged. The matter is between this person and Jehovah. (Rom. 14:12) However, Christians who have truly received this anointing do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special insights beyond what even some experienced members of the “great crowd” may have. (Rev. 7:9) They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the “other sheep” have. (John 10:16) They do not expect special treatment; nor do they claim that their partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation.
...today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class. They make up the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. These spirit-anointed men oversee the Kingdom work and the spiritual feeding program. As in the first century, though, the Governing Body does not consult with each individual member of the slave class before making decisions. (Read Acts 16:4, 5.) However, all anointed Witnesses are deeply involved in the vital harvest work that is now taking place. As a class, “the faithful and discreet slave” is one body, but as individuals, they have various work assignments.—1 Cor. 12:19-26.
-w09 6/15 p24
and the final paragraph...Whether we are “domestics,” who are part of the anointed remnant, or we are members of the great crowd, let it be our determination to cooperate fully with the faithful steward and its Governing Body. May each of us “keep on the watch” and prove ourselves faithful until the end.—Matt. 24:13, 42.
-w09 6/15 p23-24
Moving forward to this year, the Governing Body gets more praise. The fact that the 'anointed' 144,000 have gone beyond this limit, no longer matters:
The apostles and the elders of the Jerusalem congregation acted as a governing body. Christ used this instrument to lead the entire group of his anointed “brothers” on earth. (Heb. 2:11; Acts 16:4, 5) In this time of the end, Christ has committed “all his belongings”— all the earthly interests of the Kingdom—to his “faithful and discreet slave” and its representative Governing Body, a group of anointed Christian men. (Matt. 24:45-47) The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ. - w2010 9/15 page 23
Notice the wording in the above paragraph. BOTH the anointed AND the other sheep follow the Governing Body. The GB is really the Faithful Steward, so being anointed (genuine or non-genuine) doesn't count for anything, they are in the same boat as the great crowd. Further, the 'genuine' distinction made earlier gets them around the number issue. Witnesses will ignore this numbering failure and trust that many are partaking that are not actually anointed. Further, they can look at anyone that claims to be anointed in local congregations as the same as everyone else. All attention goes to the GB and their authority.
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586/7 vs. 607 (another one) Critique my letter please....
by bigmouth insince moving back to another town i've met up with an elder i knew from way back.
(i met him coming out of a salvation army shop.).
he visited me at home a few weeks ago, and as i seem to be getting more comfortable at fading i invited him in and told him i was very concerned over the 607 bce.
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Ultimate Reality
Debator claims that Josephus wrote that Jerusalem was empty for 70 years. This is NOT true. The 'secular evidence' claims it was 50 years (marked from the Temple destruction), during a 70 year period of servitude while Babylon was the world power (609 BCE to 539 BCE). So, it's either 50 or 70 years, hence the 20 year difference.
The Society marks the beginning of the countdown with the destruction of the Temple in 607 BCE (on the WT calendar). However, Josephus' understanding supports the 'secular' evidence:
“These accounts agree with the true history in our books [the Hebrew Scriptures]; for in them it is written that
Nebuchadnezzar, in the nineteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state for fifty years;
but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus, its foundations were laid and it was finished again in the second year
of Darius.” - Against Apion I, 21
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Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?
by flipper inafter reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .
i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.
so please feel free to post your experiences.
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Ultimate Reality
DG:
You do not understand the origin of the very teachings you believe in. I am sure you would encourage others to understand the origin of the Trinity in order to assess both the legitimacy of the teaching itself and those that promote the doctrine. However, you have no understanding regarding the prophetic interpretations of your own organization and how these impact your 'present truth'.
Your best gem yet...
"...whatever may have been the prevailing understanding of Jehovah's Witnesses pre-2010 regarding the meaning of the word "generation" as used at Matthew 24:34, we have abandoned what we have determined to have been error and now have a different understanding of what this "generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 is."
I hope you are prepared to repeat these sentiments for the rest of your life. This sums up the entire history of the spirit-directed, channel of God's communication, one true source of spiritual food...the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and its spirit-anointed Governing Body.
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Explanation for the generation in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32
by alice.in.wonderland ini see quite a bit of inquiry about the generation in matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 and luke 21:32. in every scripture in the gospels, the term generation is referring to a wicked generation except for matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 and luke 21:32. .
then as an answer to him some of the scribes and pharisees said: teacher, we want to see a sign from you.
in reply he said to them: a wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of jonah the prophet.
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Ultimate Reality
Alice:
The 96 CE dating for Revelation originates with Christendom and is largely based on a vague statement by '2nd century Church Father' Irenaeus:
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chp. 30
What was seen towards the end of Domitian's reign is not exactly clear. What you see above is the 'evidence' used to support a 96 CE dating. It is interesting to note that Irenaeus also claimed that Jesus lived to 50 years of age (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2:22:4-6).
A far more compelling and scholarly dating for Revelation is PRE-70 CE. This dating is also in harmony with the internal scriptural evidence.
I suggest James Stewart Russell's Parousia book from 1878 and Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry for additional reading.
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Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?
by flipper inafter reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .
i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.
so please feel free to post your experiences.
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Ultimate Reality
Here we have the source of DG's problem:
"...Parallel Dispensations . Whatever this "method" or "theory" is, I have no interest in learning its origin, so you're going to need to ask someone else."
Parallel Dispensations form the foundation for the prophetic Biblical interpretation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Without understanding this or its origins (see Studies in the Scriptures) you do not know the very premise upon which the Society has interpreted the Bible. Further, you do not know if that premise is flawed and you do not know how 130 years of using this method has resulted in consistent interpretive failures.
These failures include the interpretation of the 'generation'.